Gestalt Language Processing Data Collection

Marisha (00:01.843)

Hello there and welcome to the SLP Now podcast. I am so excited to be continuing our series on Gestalt Language Processing. And today I have Alex from Meaningful Speech joining us. she has, so I signed up for her course years ago and she had, it's amazing course, super comprehensive and targets like all of the different areas.

but she had a module or a lesson on data collection. And so I wanted to invite her here today to share some of those tips and tricks with us as we're, as we've been learning about DLP. And just a super quick intro to Alex. She has been a practicing SLP for 21 years. She has been working extensively with crystal language processors since 2016.

Alex (00:33.81)

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Marisha (00:57.425)

and she uses Dr. Blanc's Natural Language Acquisition Protocol. And she has just so many amazing resources. This bio will not do her story justice. without further ado, hello, Alex.

Alex (01:12.66)

Hi, thank you for having me here today.

Marisha (01:16.007)

and thanks for being here. We're super excited to hear from you. And I'm speaking on behalf of the listeners, because this has been a big question. So thank you for sharing your expertise with us. But before we dive into all things data collection, can you share just a little bit more of your story and your background and what led you to really focus on Gestalt language processors and kind of

Alex (01:27.341)

Absolutely. Yeah. So

Marisha (01:44.054)

Because you've been doing that since 2016. So I'm really curious to hear your story and your journey.

Alex (01:53.708)

I was an SLP for 13 years before I came across Marge Blanc's work. I found her book in 2016, Natural Language Acquisition, The Journey from Echo-Lelia to Self-Generated Language. And I basically reached out to her afterwards because I was so blown away by what I read in the book. For quite a few years,

prior to me finding the book, I had been asking a lot of speech-language pathologists and related professionals in my community here in the Chicagoland area, what do you know about delayed echolalia? What should we be doing about it? And I graduated grad school in 2003. And at that point, I mean, no one talked about it. No one really was talking about

autism to too much unless you took it as an elective course. So I basically came away without any knowledge in this area and all the SLPs that I was speaking with, whether they were new grads or older practitioners, would tell me you need to redirect, you need to ignore, you need to tell them no movie talk. So in

Inside, internally, I felt like that was not right. I felt like these kids were trying to communicate something to me. I just didn't know what, how to find out what it was, or what to do about it until I came across Marge Blanc's book. And that kind of changed everything for me. And I call Marge my mentor because we, she's in Madison, Wisconsin. I'm just outside of Chicago.

We didn't meet in person at all, but via email and telephone, she really helped me with two particular clients that I had in my clinic at the time and then invited me to come present with her in 2017 at the ASHA convention in Los Angeles. And that's when we actually met in person. And she has really supported me and helped me through learning this to the.

Alex (04:08.733)

to the degree that I do now. I really what I wanted to do when I started my online community and my course was show people the how to, because that part was what was the most tricky for me. I learned how to analyze language samples and I learned all about the stages and everything made sense to me.

but I felt like I really wanted to watch someone do this in therapy. And I could not find anyone around me that even knew anything. So I basically created it. And that's a lot of what I tried to showcase on both social media and a lot more in depth inside my course. I show a lot of videos of me personally working.

with different kids. And now I'm happy to say, you know, we're at the point in 2024 where so many SLPs understand this in greater depth that I eventually would love to show other SLPs doing this as well. But at the time I only had myself. So that's kind of what my course is made up of.

Marisha (05:20.963)

I love that story. And that was, I don't know, it's just really cool how I love our field in general, because it's so supportive. And it's just amazing that you were able to reach out to Marge and then end up working with her and co-presenting and doing all these amazing things. I love it. Okay, so we've been talking about

Alex (05:37.094)

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Marisha (05:45.603)

NLA GLP on the podcast for the past few episodes and there the question about data collection keeps coming up. what are your, and assuming that the listeners have a basic foundation of like, okay, they generally understand what the stages are. and just some general assessment strategies, what tips and tricks are like mindset, like where would you tell someone to start thinking about data collection?

Alex (06:13.482)

Yeah, so I tell people if you know how to take spontaneous language samples, that's your data. And that's definitely a mindset switch for SLPs. I mean, back when I was quote unquote trained, I mean, we were using clickers and, you know, marking little tally marks and things like that, both with language and articulation or phonological therapy.

So this is a huge mindset shift, but basically what we want to do is collect any spontaneous language in a language sample from the child. And this can be multi-modal communicators as well. So if they're communicating with AAC or gestures or sign, I'm still writing that down whenever it's spontaneous. So the biggest thing I have to emphasize when I'm training professionals is

You don't want this to be prompted. You're not writing down language when they're answering a question or when you're saying, what's this? Or when you're giving them a phonemic cue, it has to be spontaneous. So I collect all that spontaneous language and using Marge Blanc's protocol, NLA protocol, I teach people how to score it. So we score the sample using the stages.

And then from there, we take percentages. So you're able to, let's say, a 50 utterance sample. And then you see on there that 25 of those are in stage one. So you're going to report that the child is communicating 50 % in stage one. And there is your data. And so you can show progress if you work at a school or an environment where you're generating

IEP goals or progress reports, or even if you have to prove to insurance, you can show progress over time by different measures. So the variety of different types of gestalts produced in stage one, I can take percentages on that using my language sample. I can show movement within the stages. So like in April, they were, you know,

Alex (08:34.179)

30 % in stage one and 20 % in stage two and the rest of the time they were in stage four, but they completely skipped over stage three. So in October, obviously my data hopefully will look different and I'll say, now I'm hearing 10 % stage three and 40 % stage four. And so we're seeing movement in changes within.

the stages that way. But the biggest thing I want to emphasize is that we don't recommend standardized testing prior to stage four when a child is using flexible self-generated language to communicate. So we're really relying on our language samples. If for whatever reason you're in an environment that

makes you, forces you to use standardized tests, I always say you have to do what you have to do. So give those tests, but realize that the information you collect from them are likely not going to help guide your therapy session. And probably a discussion for another time, but most of our standardized tests are normed on neurotypical individuals.

It's really difficult to apply that information to our neurodivergent and autistic population. And that's mainly who we're talking about when we talk about Gestalt Language Processors in speech therapy. Now we all know that anyone can be a GLP, but those that need support are usually falling within those categories.

Marisha (10:12.307)

That was such a great overview. love that. and so, and that makes a lot of sense. We're just, we're taking language samples throughout the sessions and then using March box protocol to score the stages. we can get different types of data from that, percentage spent in each stage or like percentage of utterances in each stage. And then also just the variety of the stocks produced within or like across.

Alex (10:30.24)

Okay.

Marisha (10:41.725)

within a stage to just the variety of those. So that's more of a number versus a percentage. And then what tips do you, cause do you have any tips to make this easier? Cause I feel like Alex, you guys, like you've been practicing this for so long. You can probably like score a language sample in your sleep. But I imagine for, and it took me a little while to get used to the scoring and it, you do pick it up fairly quickly.

Alex (10:57.632)

yeah.

Marisha (11:11.549)

But do you have any tips or suggestions for someone who is newer to this and it like this just feels like, like this feels like it'll take a long time. Like realistically, like what would it look like for someone who's brand new? Like what do you think they typically, should they plan to spend a few minutes after the session scoring it or like what's the best way to kind of collect that and score it in as real time as possible?

Alex (11:38.462)

Yeah, so just real quick before I launch into that, I do think it is possible to take percentages on a variety of gestalts. If you look at all your communication functions and categories, you can take percentages there. like they're communicating 10 % of what they're saying is commenting, 20 % of what they're saying is help, 30 % is share joy. So when we look at all of that, we can use either.

So I just wanted to kind of clarify that. As far as what will make things easier, I do want to tell people that when you are new to this, it's such a mindset shift. It's going to take a while. And I think the less you see GLPs in the caseload, the longer it's going to take. I consulted with an SLP yesterday in Mississippi who told me she sees all gen ed, but she was asked to see four kids in a self-contained autistic.

classroom. So she's mainly spending her whole day not with GLPs. So it's taking her a little while longer to kind of wrap her mind around this. I would say just collect language from each session, get in the habit of getting that written down. So whether that be on a little piece of paper, or whether that be on your iPad or voice recording or a video on your phone, and then yes, you are going to have to spend a little time out of the session.

listening to that again or looking at it again and kind of looking at the stages and trying to score it. And you will have a lot of question marks. When I first started doing this, I would put a big question mark next to a lot of what these kids were saying, because I didn't know how to score that. And I also didn't know their history. So the younger the kid, honestly, the easier it is. But when they come a little bit

later to you and they've had a history of compliance-based therapies or traditional therapies or other things in their life, we don't always know where that language is coming from and if it's spontaneous or taught and we kind of figure that out as we get to know the child. So just have grace with yourself and realize that

Alex (13:53.327)

This takes practice. It's kind of like anything else in life. You want to get better at playing the piano, like you need to practice. You can't just do it like once a month and then think you're going to play a concerto at the end of the year.

Marisha (14:07.731)

Yeah, I love that reminder of like, and it's our, that's one of the joys of being an SLP. feel like it's, we'll constantly have room for growth and improvement. And this is just one of the areas that we can practice. So I love that. And then, yeah, so we're just getting in the habit of.

Alex (14:25.304)

Yeah.

Marisha (14:32.775)

collecting those utterances throughout the session, whether we're writing them or recording them. And then like if SLPs are in your course, SLPs could watch those videos and practice over and over. So it's like building that.

Alex (14:45.863)

Over and over again, that's why I give, it was important to give lifetime access because so many people have said, I had to go back in and watch this or I got this new student and so now I have to go back and watch this module. So I do have a whole module where I think there's four or five kids that I showcase. And again, they're my kids. So I tell people, you don't know them and their history, I do.

but I allow people to kind of practice scoring by watching the video.

Marisha (15:19.357)

Yeah. And I think one of the trickiest things was, cause I don't watch a lot of the kids show, like I don't consume as much kid content as my kiddos do. And so one part of it is getting to know your client and their background and all of that. And then also just familiarity with the different, the different shows and what the different phrases mean. Like I know with one of my kiddos, the mom,

would sit in the session with me. And sometimes I wouldn't know, but the mom would be like, yeah, that's from this show or this song. So getting familiar with that content is helpful.

Alex (15:52.057)

Definitely. And there are websites that you can go to. We've listed them on posts that we've done. Maybe you can put them in your show notes like Yarn.io and things like that where you can put the phrases or gestalts that you're hearing from the shows and try to figure out.

what show they're from, what was going on in the scene, and that can kind of help you do some detective work. Just a little warning though that some of those sites have some explicit stuff sometimes, so don't pull it up in front of a child.

Marisha (16:33.897)

Yeah, yeah, I love that you shared that as a resource because that has definitely been helpful. And then I once like, so it sounds like your recommendation is, it's just going to take some practice and your course has lots of amazing videos. They can also, if they're not in a place to sign up for a course right now, like your Instagram has some really great videos that SLPs can practice with as well.

Alex (16:49.238)

Yep.

Alex (16:53.847)

Yeah.

Marisha (17:03.911)

And then I'm curious, just like a random question. So I'll share my experience and I feel like you'll have the same opinion, but, I attended a course at a conference about using AI and all of that to, help with different pieces of our SLP role. And I tried plugging in like a little language sample to see if the AI could figure out what stage the utterances were in.

Alex (17:32.072)

interesting.

Marisha (17:33.411)

but they were, they were missing, like obviously the child's background and those like pop culture references. So I feel like that's like, that's not really a time saver, but I'm just curious if you've seen or like seen SLPs use that to actually save time or what your thoughts are.

Alex (17:48.182)

No one's asked me about that in particular, so I'm really glad that you brought that up because I think one of the things I emphasize so much is how this is so individualized and I have no idea how AI could figure something like that out when they don't know the child, don't know their interests, don't know their history. But

AI is extremely helpful for other things and the last that I was in there poking around, I do feel like it's pulling up really good info on Gestalt language development. So thanks to the people that allowed that to happen and I hope it continues to be that way. So it could be helpful if you wanted to pull up something really quick to explain to a colleague or, you know, a family member, but I would definitely not use it for language samples.

Marisha (18:42.183)

Okay, that's what I just for my like little perusing I was like, I don't think this would work. but I was really curious. I was like, let's see. yeah, you're so right. It is so individualized and we need that. Like clinical perspective of all the information that we know about the child and their context. okay. Awesome. So I, yeah, I feel like we did a nice job covering.

Alex (18:45.716)

Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Marisha (19:09.779)

data collection tips and strategies. Is there anything that you wanted to add, Alex?

Alex (19:14.817)

No, I just think that if you're very new to this, it can feel very overwhelming. So just take it slow. Maybe start with like one or two clients that you just know it's going to be a good idea for you to start recording their language.

It's a little bit harder with the movers and shakers, the sensory seekers, the ones where you're really like hands on moving around with them in the room. It can be done though. Those are usually the ones that I record on video or voice record on my phone and listen to later. But.

Yeah, just think about that. And then also if you have any colleagues that are learning this along with you, it's super good to be able to discuss with people. So I get really excited when like whole districts or whole clinics take the course and they want to learn together because I think that power of learning in a group kind of helps things progress a little bit faster.

Marisha (20:11.197)

Yeah, I love that as a strategy. So taking it slow, starting with one to two students, like roping in other colleagues if you can so you can learn together. And then, like you said before, giving ourselves grace in the process because just like our students, we're learning and yeah, one step at a time. And then in the show notes, I will link to...

Alex (20:15.846)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex (20:26.258)

For

Marisha (20:37.499)

Alex's Instagram account in her course. I'll also link to yarn.io and I'll see if I can find like I'll I think I've seen some posts about those.

Alex (20:49.468)

Yeah, I can share a resource with you where we have some other sites listed.

Marisha (20:54.215)

Okay, perfect, because that is probably the best way to utilize technology to help us is just figuring out kind of those, the shows and songs and where those phrases are coming from for our kiddos. Okay, well, this was amazing. Thank you so much, Alex, and thank you to everyone who listened.

Alex (21:15.749)

Thanks for having me.